Exposing Counterfeit Apostles and Prophets: A Discussion With Holly Pivec

first of all I want to repeat something you have to write it down because you already have it in your notes but I want to remind you that the New Apostolic Reformation is the most radical change in the way of doing church since the Protestant Reformation that’s what we’re that’s what we’re dealing with that’s what we’re springing off into the 21st century with so if you listen to my previous podcast called what is the Nar and am I a part of it I discussed what has become known as the New Apostolic Reformation which when you boil it all down it basically amounts to sort of Illuminati type conspiracy theory this is huge this this has happened about last 10 or 15 years and so this is we’re we’re in good shape I mean we know how to do spiritual mapping we didn’t even know the word a few years ago we know how to do identification repentance we know how to do prophetic Acts uh we we we have tools of weapons of spiritual warfare that we now know how to use I mean God already already had them I mean not know how to use them weapons of told you yesterday we have the tools now to Break Free Masonry to reduce it in a nation like they have in New Zealand I mean we’ve got God has given us so much prayer the level of prayer now you probably could never have matched it in all of history and um this is not a worldwide scale nor doesn’t always admit its own existence because the way it’s being described doesn’t exist now we in the nuclear church have dealt with this when I say that we’ve reached a critical mass we’ve mostly reached a critical mass in the nuclear church as of the second Apostolic age which was started in 2001. actually I don’t just I don’t deny the existence of apostolic alliances there are plenty of them I deny the existence of this thing called Nar first of all I want to repeat something you have to write it down because you already have it in your notes but I want to remind you that the New Apostolic Reformation is the most radical change in the way of doing church since the Protestant Reformation foreign welcome to long for truth my name is Daniel long and I have Holly pivic with me holly pivik is the author of this book right here let’s see how good I can get up there counterfeit Kingdom so Holly thank you so much for joining me today we’re going to be talking about Holly’s book counterfeit Kingdom thanks so much Daniel for having me on I’ve been looking forward to this yeah me too so uh let’s uh let’s talk about the Nar but before we do that uh tell us a little bit about yourself and just tell us you know why you wrote the book of course so I have well I’m a researcher of Colts and aberrant off-key groups and um I’ve been researching the New Apostolic Reformation movement for about 20 years now um I first learned about it uh when I was working at Biola University as the managing editor of Viola magazine and I was also the university editor there for about a decade and I was earning my master’s degree in Christian apologetics and um it was during my time there then I I first learned about this movement from someone who who was concerned about the movement and and told me about it I talked about that story in my books but um and so I began researching it since then with uh my co-author Doug uh Professor from Biola University a philosophy Professor uh we have written multiple books together about this movement including uh counterfeit Kingdom the one we’re talking about today and um in addition to that I have a Blog where for for about the past 20 years I’ve been blogging about this movement at hollypivic.com um and I am also a pastor’s wife and a homeschooling mom so in the book Holly one of one of the things that you uh talk about is your experience at Bethel can you just talk about that a little bit what exactly happened there what was that all about um were you just attending to see what was going on or you know to fill us in right and so um in the course of my research I visited Bethel church and it was actually uh a Sunday school class it was the adult Sunday school class that uh called fire starters that I wrote about in in the chapter you’re talking about in our book and um and what I observed there that day this particular week it was I think it was a 12-week course called fire starters and they teach uh people to become revivalists like modern day revivalists is what they would say and that day they were uh activating people in a prophetic gift or they were they were teaching people how to prophesy um so um what what they did during the class is there there was a lot during the class that I talked about in the book a lot of um bizarre unusual behavior I observed there as far as like drunk drunkenness in the Holy Spirit and and this type of thing um but that they when they were teaching people how to prophesy what they would do is they would call individuals to the front of the room who had never prophesied before but wanted to uh acquire a prophetic gift and they would tell them just to say uh so one person would come to the stage at a time and they would tell them or to the front of the room and they would tell them to say whatever came to their mind is a prophetic word for someone in the audience just a random person that they might pick in the audience and they would say don’t filter your words don’t think about it just say whatever pops into your head and give that as a prophetic word and don’t worry if you get it wrong if you make mistakes you’re learning to prophesy it’s okay and so that was very um concerning to me that um you know with all these warnings in scripture about the importance of testing prophetic words and you know putting prophets people who claim to be profits to the test and the warnings about false prophets just to say tell people whatever comes to your head just just say it don’t filter it and so it seemed more like cold reading yeah and something like mentalists or you know entertainers will do to where they act like they are receiving information supernaturally like a psychic or something but really really they’re just reading Their audience but if you close your eyes where you’re praying for somebody you’re gonna miss it because what happens is you begin to pray and you’re praying and you’re releasing and you may say one word and that may be a trigger for them and they just lose it or they’ll begin to cry and you’ll look at if you’re looking at them you’ll really say oh we hit something here let’s go after this let’s pray into this so keep your eyes open when you’re praying for somebody I know that sounds strange but it it really does work and you see that kind of stuff um you know Steve Kozar uh our mutual friend did a a video about Sean Boltz who did the same kind of thing he you know and you and a lot of the information from these guys they can just find on social media that’s right and we do talk about uh we talk about what Steve reported there with Sean Boltz we actually uh uh referred to that video Steve did and um what we would say is um what what that looks like it could be and what Steve talked about is is actually hot reading so with reading what you have is uh you know it’s a prophet or someone who claims to be a psychic or something will go to a complete stranger and they’ll just look at the person and they can tell by maybe at what age they are if they’re wearing a wedding ring or not you know me information about them they can just kind of Guess with hot reading what they do is they actually engage in research beforehand so so um what Steve showed that appeared to be happening in the case of Sean boltzes is that perhaps he had done some research ahead of time on people in the audience who had signed up for the event who he knew he would be attending it was all information you could find just by going to their Facebook profiles and their websites and information you can find online and then and then sharing that information in the moment as if it was a prophetic word from from God now I’m going to practice and this is so nerve-wracking I’m just being honest I we’ve all sweat off our deodorant though so it’s okay um and you’re gonna have to help me so I’m gonna give a couple what I call Holy Spirit nudges or indicators and then you if it’s you you’re gonna have to wave no one else wave and then if it’s really you everybody else has to start pointing and we’re gonna see on the camera and I’m looking for a dentist who you’re either from the Ukraine or your parents were every single thing that Sean says comes directly from the social media accounts of Dennis this is just a big trick and you move you moon or Washington DC there’s a dentist who your parents were from the Ukraine you moved into America help me out here as our dentist so my story goes that my family comes from my Ukrainian background so my mom when she was about 16 years old came into the United States and my dad around not too long after that did as well they didn’t know each other and they came and they they got married in the United States and I was a second son born into the family we’ve only done this stadiums this big a few times it’s a little hard we have somebody we thank God thank you Dennis for listening to God and showing up is there a screen I can see or I can’t even see a screen I guess here let me walk way out here and almost fall off the stage this is good Dennis you’re here good I can see a little bit and the Lord is saying he’s raising you up that there’s something you’re too called to build of an Awakening movement an Awakening movement something on the East Coast I think you’re on the west coast but you’re gonna be on the East Coast apparently it’s happening on the east coast and I just see like um Pennsylvania Pennsylvania okay Holly let’s go ahead and transition then and talk about the different types of prophecies now um you hear these prophets these Nar prophets claim they’re and actually they’re self-appointed prophets and they’re claiming you know to speak for God but what proof do they have what proof do they have right so these people will claim to be Apostles and Prophets and a lot of times many people will just take them at their word you know if they claim to be an apostle or prophet and what they’ll say is well you know if they’re a decent person if they’re not teaching any outright heresy if their words are consistent with scripture then I’ll just take them at their word that their Apostle or Prophet but that’s not good enough even if their words are consistent with scripture um that’s not good enough because there are a lot of things scripture doesn’t address so they can give a prophecy or make a prediction or something about something that that isn’t um addressed in scripture and it may not be inconsistent with scripture but it doesn’t mean that they’re a prophet that they receive that Revelation from God and so really the burden of proof is on the person claiming to be a prophet to First demonstrate there are profit by providing suitable evidence for that and so that means not just testing an individual prophecy but their whole pattern of of teaching that they are someone that handles scripture carefully and accurately and they interpret it soundly as a whole pattern of their Ministry and also um that they they’ve provided Supernatural evidence of their their claim to be a prophet that they’ve they’ve uh through working of Miracles or um like like we see with Moses you know when God God sent Moses to go to Pharaoh or like Jesus work miracles or like even in Revelation we learn about the two witnesses in the Book of Revelation working miracles or uh and then also um or maybe they’ve they make some kind of amazing prediction that’s fulfilled with this astounding you know it’s an astounding prediction with this amazing accuracy or something like that but they need to put forth some kind of positive positive evidence that they’re a prophet before anybody just accepts their claims so at that time I actually ran to our church bathroom and I literally got out a piece of of paper just like that this from the restroom and as God began to speak to me I wrote it down God speaks to these guys supposedly but then when when it’s time to prophesy everything seems to be vague you know it’s like God speaks to them in their personal time or they’ll tell these Amazing Stories how God was just carrying on a conversation with them but then when it comes to you know giving an actual prophecy these prophecies are vague or they you know there’s nothing really that uh sub of of substance there do you do you follow what I’m saying I do so so the thing is when when they make a prediction um that’s an actual prediction it needs to come to pass we know that from Deuteronomy 18 you know when a prophet makes a prediction um it has come to pass or else they’re not a true prophet of God but many times what they’ll do is they’ll present their prophecies as if they are predictions but as you say they’re so vague and generic and Broad um you know we refer to some of those their prophecies as like fortune cookie probably yeah it’s like when you read a fortune cookie you know and it’s so generic it can it can mean anything so really uh there’s you know no way to know if it was ever fulfilled or not there’s no way to test it and if it’s not testable you know then it’s not a real prophecy 2020 is about God’s sake the wait is over come on someone shout the wait is over and it’s not the delay or the weight but how many understand w-e-i-g-h-t there has been a heaviness there has been a weight there has been a yoke that is weight some of you down your burden has been great but God in this season with a sound that he is releasing in the earth it’s lifting the weight the delayed time the delay period and I’m here to speak to you right now that as you enter into 2020 you’re not just centering into a new year but the spirit of God is declaring that 2020 shall Mark a beginning of a decade that shall be known in the earth and for his people as the decade of Distinction the decade of difference it’s going to be different are you listening by the way of Daystar it is going to be different and so um so yes we talked about that uh fortune cookie prophecies we talk about art archetype prophecies in our book these are a common prophecy where where uh people in the movement will be told that um oh you’re like a a Daniel or you’re like a you know from the Bible um or you’re like a David you know because you’ll slay Giants and that might sound really encouraging to someone to receive a prophetic word like that but really what does that even mean um it’s so big it’s so generic it makes people feel good to hear that they might be like a Daniel in the spirit or a David or something like that but but it’s really not testify or it’s not uh testable I feel like you’re a real Hannah in the spirit and that you’ve really dedicated anything that the Lord’s given to you to the Lord and in the same way in which Hannah dedicated Samuel it was God had to open her womb in the first place but prophetically she dedicated anything in which God had given her to the Lord and here’s what Samuel’s name is means god is heard so there’s something of the burden that you’re carrying in which God is saying God is heard and you’re like a Hannah in the spirit um Jennifer LeClaire is one of the uh prophets that uh we talk about every once in a while and she has a video out on vulture prophets how you know we shouldn’t be vulture prophets we should be you know always speaking good things you know the vulture prophets are the ones who are always pronouncing gloom and doom and they’re always you know just uh negative but we should always be speaking positive speaking life into people vote your prophets vulture profits are low-level prophets they don’t got nothing better to do than to judge you to curse you to judge your nation to curse your family all their releases doom and gloom and doom and gloom and doom Gloom you don’t want to be a vulture Prophet get out of that low life prophetic get out of that vulture they’re eating on dead things what do vultures do they eat they feed on dead things you don’t want to do that you don’t want to be one of those vulture vulture profits vulture perfect people who lay down low and feed on dead things true prophets Speak Life we refer to those as Blue Sky prophecies in our book and when I was at Bethel Church at their their Sunday school class I talked about where they were teaching people how to prophesy it actually said in the instructions um that you were only supposed to give positive prophecies um they would at Bethel they could say if they described that as calling out the golden people you’re only supposed to give prophecies that encourage people wow but not to call out sin or judgment or anything like that but that’s very different than you know as you mentioned that we see in the Bible you know the Old Testament Prophet Jeremiah and his his um his Prophecies of of warning and judgment and um or or even in the New Testament you know if they want to say well those are Old Testament prophecies uh even in the New Testament we see the the negative prophecies activists gave you know when he he warned Paul what was going to happen to him when he went to Jerusalem or you know of it he warned levers you know in Acts we learned about him warning of an impending famine coming on the land and things like that and so yes that is uh very different than um the the the the requirement that prophecies only be positive uh is is very different than what we see in scripture but one thing I should mention is that in Nar the requirement that prophecies only be positive really is a requirement that they usually only give to people who claim to have the gift of Prophecy and so that would be like your average believer uh who who has a gift for a prophet sign but they wouldn’t say that that prohibition against its negative prophecies applies to people who claim to be in the office of profit um so someone like Chris Valentin or Cindy Jacobs or someone like that and that’s a really important distinction for people to understand is that in Nar what they’re saying they’re not just saying that some people have a gift of Prophecy like Pentecostals and charismatics and and others continuationists believe that there’s this modern gift of Prophecy um that some people have uh that’s like non-authoritative and maybe you can give prophetic words to individuals or just to local churches what they’re what they’re actually saying is that there are individuals in the church who hold this formal governing office of profit it’s a hierarchical prophets a hierarchical office it’s authoritative and the words of these prophets are supposed to be taken very seriously and um they liken the prophets who hold office even to like the Old Testament prophets and in the authority they had like you know Isaiah and Jeremiah and Ezekiel and these people and so that’s a really important distinction and we we try to be very clear in our books and all of our interviews Doug and I that we’re not um our books are not a critique of classical Pentecostal or charismatic theology about the miraculous gifts of the Spirit like prophesy and speaking in tongues those kind of things because there are many Pentecostals and charismatics uh and continuationists who are very concerned about this New Apostolic Reformation movement because they don’t they don’t believe that there are governing office offices of apostle and Prophet today that are authoritative that are claiming to bring critical new revelation for the church uh that has many Pentecostals and charismatics another continuation is concerned as well and those claims and so we we tried to be really careful in making that distinction the folks in the Nar would say that new testament prophecy is different from Old Testament prophecy prophecies or or so so the Old Testament prophets in the New Testament prophets are two two different sets of prophets and the New Testament prophets are allowed to get it wrong where the Old Testament prophets weren’t can we talk about that just a little bit sure yes that’s a very common teaching in the New Apostolic reformation and um the thing is that um that actually many charismatics as well will believe that people who have the gift of Prophecy of the non-authoritative gift um can make mistakes in prophesying and still have the gift that’s a very common belief that the charismatics have but uh leaders in the New Apostolic Reformation will go beyond that and they’ll actually claim that people who hold the governing office this authoritative office of profit can also make mistakes when they’re prophesying and still be considered uh legitimate authoritative prophets of God and so um so I don’t see support in scripture for the idea that that um people can prophesy today and make mistakes when they prophesy even with the gift of Prophecy but even if you grant that that’s the case um for the sake of argument that’s that that’s still uh it’s a very different thing when Nar leaders are claiming that that they prophesy really much like the Old Testament prophets did with great Authority and um and that their word should be taken seriously and really listened to but at the same time that they’re allowed to make mistakes and still be considered legitimate profits okay so let’s talk now about the failed prophecies um we should not trust anyone who calls himself a prophet that uh prophesies and that prophecy falls to the ground which is what happened with the Trump prophecies and you mentioned the Trump prophecies in your book um I know Chris valetton was one of those uh one of the guys who you know prophesied the Trump will be re-elected and I know Jeremiah Johnson was anybody else that you can think of uh well there there were a number we cited an article in our in our book in chapter four of our book where there was a professor who counted at least 40 Prophets um so there were many many prophets who um who prophesied that that President Trump would be re-elected in in 2020 to president well here’s an old clip uh that you can still find on the internet Chris Valentine has not taken it down off of his uh YouTube channel now I do want to say that I’m going to be manipulating some of the Bethel stuff or at least the Chris Valentine stuff because uh of copyright strike they think they’re beyond criticism so I may have to manipulate the video a little bit but uh tell me what let me get your thoughts on Chris Valentine’s apology for the failed Trump prophecy but secondly I really want to apologize sincerely apologize for missing the prophecy about Donald Trump I prophesied that Donald Trump would be president four days after he uh four days after he took the not nomination um the first time on 40th after he declared himself a candidate I should say the first time and um I that was obviously right and then later on I prophesied that he would not be impeached and the fact that he would win another term and I was completely wrong I take full responsibility for being wrong there’s no excuse for it I I think it um it doesn’t make me a false prophet but it does actually create a credibility gap so does it make him a false prophet well you know he missed it I think it’s uh it’s you know it’s good that he admitted that he was wrong but the thing is that um uh you know he’s claiming that that still doesn’t make him a false prophet and that you know that and so this is what we were talking about that that leaders in this movement will claim that they can still be legitimate prophets of God when they make mistakes and one thing too I wanted to point out is um he put this apology video up um early and then his followers were telling well you put this up too soon when the election results were being contested so um he pulled that apology video down and then he said you know so it seemed like his followers were were because his followers were saying well you put that up too soon let’s wait and see what the outcome is after the elections being contested and then he put it back up again later when it became very clear uh that the election results uh would not be overturned and so um so that’s kind of interesting too okay Holly so that is the Trump prophecy fails but there were also prophets who talked about covid ending let’s talk a little bit about that yeah one thing we talk about in our book first of all is that that there’s no notable Prophet uh who actually prophesied covet before it happened which is very telling because you had for example you had the apostolic Council prophetic Elders every year they give their these are influential non-profits that come together every year and release a prophetic word for for the upcoming year and uh you know their prophetic word uh for 2020 had no mention of covet coming it was it was only you know uh good things coming and fortune cookie prophecies and that kind of thing but but no mention that kovid was coming and then um and then when covet did come you had a number of Gnar prophets who actually prophesied that kovid was going to end quickly uh even before Easter of 2020 or by Easter of 2020 and it wasn’t going to become This Global pandemic that everyone feared um Sean Boltz was one of those prophets who prophesied the that covet would be brought to an early end and when it become a global pandemic he made those prophecies while he was on a stage with Bill Johnson and at a conference in South Africa and and that was reported even by uh Fox News at the time um and so um and so yeah these coveted prophecies like the Trump prophecies are just really brought a lot of embarrassment to this movement um yeah so much so that um some um some people in this movement and some people who work closely with them uh like Michael Brown and Joseph Matera got together and produced this prophetic standard statement um because uh they um you know these these failed prophecies just brought so much embarrassment um to people who believe that there are uh present-day prophets all right so let me play you a quick video of Kenneth Copeland and I’ll get your and he’s he’s um at one of his conferences talking about covid so let me get your response on this clip here Friday night at 9 24. now Gloria and my usual routine is we go to bed early and listen to a couple of messages about brother Hagin watch the 700 Club by you know 10 10 30 turn the light out well we had just listened to brother Hagin that first message and suddenly the word of the Lord came to me so I I jumped up and got my notepad and wrote it down 9 24. this disease called codv19 will be over much sooner than you think Christian people all over this country praying have overwhelmed it give me all the Glorious saith the spirit of Grace and many many people will come to know me through it I’m still Lord over this nation I’m on the throne and faith in me changes things [Applause] all right Holly give me your thoughts well yeah he’s so he he’s another one who uh you know who obviously uh got it wrong when he prophesied the early end of covid um interestingly he just spoke at uh Bethel Church in Reading um uh last Sunday um and and Kenneth Copeland is a Word of Faith teacher for those who don’t know and so um Word of Faith teachings include that with our spoken word we can create reality much like God spoke um in Genesis and created and so um a lot of people will ask you know how how does Word of Faith intersect with the New Apostolic Reformation movement well it intersects because new Nar leaders will teach that um since the Protestant Reformation God has been restoring lost truths to the church um starting with Martin Luther and then you know going through restoring um uh teachings about the gifts of the Spirit and then and then up through Prosperity Gospel teachings Word of Faith teachings teachings about the restoration of Apostles offices of apostle and prophet and so my point is that word of faith teachings um Gnar leaders teach that that those are lost truths that have been restored to the church and that it’s pivotal for for uh us to embrace Word of Faith teachings so that we can bring God’s kingdom to Earth along with prosperity gospel teachings as well and so that that’s how the teachings intersect and so it’s not a surprise to me that that uh Bill Johnson would speak highly of Kenneth Copeland and that he that Kenneth Copeland would be invited to speak at Bethel church because of um the role that word of faith teachings play Within uh the Nar movement okay so let’s talk then since Kenneth Copeland spoke at Bethel just recently let’s talk about Bethel and the harm that Bethel has done to the body of Christ through Bill Johnson and Chris Valentin and those and those leaders there um so in the in your book you talk about an incident that took place uh where the leaders of the church were praying for the resurrection of a little girl by the name of olive can you talk about that just a little bit yes on December 2019 there was a two-year-old little little girl named Olive she was the daughter of a worship leader at Bethel and um she passed away um unexpectedly I think in her sleep and you know of course the parents were devastated as any parents would be and um the thing is though that they they refused to accept her death and um they you know they um wanted to pray that God would would raise her from the dead that there would be a resurrection and so um the Bethel leaders agreed to support them in that and so what they Bethel did was they called on their followers worldwide and they have a global following um so through social media they called on their followers to join them in making prayer declarations to raise this little girl from the dead Saturday just a few days ago we had a great tragedy one of the key individuals in our world their two-year-old little girl died quite unexpectedly just out of nowhere and so we’ve been praying for the miracle of God Mom and Dad Andrew and Callie have asked us to pray for resurrection and we’ve joined with them we have a Biblical precedent Jesus raised the Dead Jesus raised the Dead and so even like really influential worship leaders um joined in like Carrie job and you know they were urging their followers on social media to join Bethel and making these prayer declarations um and again prayer declarations are the belief it’s not traditional or biblical historical prayer where we make requests or petitions of God and ask him to do something uh if it’s in line with his will but but prayer declarations are when we speak words that are believed to create reality and so they were declaring uh that through their spoken words that Olive would be raised from the dead thank you [Applause] resurrection power in Jesus Jesus fill your body feel your body right now in Jesus name in Jesus name and they did this for uh six days and so the media the secular media the mainstream media picked up on um this and started covering it and so it got a lot of attention and people were following the story very closely and the church was holding Services even uh where where members would come and they’d be kind of dancing and singing and shouting for Olive to come out of the Grave let’s go foreign [Applause] and sadly after six days she was not raised and um you know that that of course was covered as well in the media so so this is another example where even even though um the church no doubt was you know well-meaning um the consequences are just devastating as and um there there have been people that have told me that it was in the aftermath of that that they started actually questioning bethel’s teachings that they used to um you know follow Bethel but that kind of began to open their eyes that uh something was was wrong with the teachings but uh the the person known as The Friendly atheist that we talk about in the first chapter of the book very influential blogger um and he um he actually talked about this story and actually you know used it to to criticize all religion you know he said something like it takes religion to add another layer of misery on on Grief I’m not I’m paraphrasing but but just that only religion can do something so terrible as to cause people who already had such grief at losing their daughter to have even to compound their grief more so so this was just another example of something um that has damaged the the reputation of the church and her her our ability as Christians to share the gospel with unbelievers going forward um Holly so these um these Nar prophets and apostles how do they attract so many followers well we talk in our dinner about the The lure to this movement is uh the baits are are the blessings the apostles and Prophets really promised their followers um certain blessings that their followers can only have if they come under the spiritual covering that’s a um like a buzz term in this movement buzzwords a spiritual covering what it means is that people are supposed to um uh submit to the authority of the Apostles and Prophets receive their Revelations and then by doing so um that there’s there’s blessings that will trickle down to them and so um those uh blessings can include Prosperity it can include uh healing if people are in need of physical healing um it it and and people really are taught that you really um can’t uh fulfill your destiny um if you if you aren’t under the authority of an apostle or profit maybe you have some kind of bondage in your life and it may be demonic bondage and the only way you can get rid of it is by following the revelations of these Apostles and Prophets um so really you know everything we say Really they hold the keys to the kingdom all the blessings are contingent on coming under their Authority but they don’t always say that directly or in such bald terms they use a lot of euphemism so so um they’ll say you need to align with these spiritual or I mean with the apostles and Prophets and what they mean by a line is really submit to them but but submit they don’t always use the word submit because that um you know it’s pretty direct yeah though a lot of euphemisms to soften their teachings yeah so there once they get people into or you know once they manipulate people and they get them in what how do they keep them so how do they keep them there there are you talk about um uh tactics that they use to keep their followers what are some of those tactics there are a number of tactics um one we call Brain Stoppers and that’s if someone is um starting to maybe question the teachings of an apostle or Prophet or or challenge them even um there’s these these phrases that are used frequently in the movement for example um they’ll say uh you know you can’t put God in a box um I bet yeah and so you know if you if you criticize something that’s being done that seems unbiblical or it seems like it doesn’t have the support of scripture or just seems very odd or weird some kind of behavior um they’ll say well you can’t put God in a box or or um if you um uh another one they’ll say is God offends the mind to reveal the heart and so in other words if if you take offense at some something that an Apostle Prophet is doing because it seems very bizarre or unbiblical or something they’ll say well the fact that you’re taking offensive that shows that you have a bad heart there’s something wicked or evil in your heart and so whenever their followers start to question them you know they hear these kind of um these these brain Stoppers will be used and and then that makes a follower start to question themselves and they think wow maybe I really do have a bad heart you know maybe something is wrong with me and over time they learn to stop questioning because they they are basically taught to shut down their critical thinking yeah and then they asked you also talk about book Banning what they they ban uh can you talk about that for a minute well we we cite a quotation by Bill Johnson from one of his books where he um he basically says don’t read books that are written by uh critics of Revival the people who are critical or Revival only you know you should only the the idea with that is kind of promoted a lot in this movement is that you should you should really only read books and listen to teachers who actually walk in the Supernatural who have practiced the thing the the gifts and the and the follow the teachings of this movement and you really shouldn’t listen to people who are critical of the the teachings of this movement what about threats threats yeah so an example we give is is touch not the Lord’s anointed that’s another it’s also like another brain stopper but it has a threat to it it’s it’s uh they’re using verses out of context from the Old Testament um but but what the what they’ll do is they’ll say touch not the Lord’s Anointed God said do not touch mine anointing but they feel like they have very light to discern gods and who’s not God I know I’d be very very careful I don’t know what part of Judge not we don’t get he said judge not that you’ll be not judged and it’s a very freeing freeing scripture you know just to judge not but the Warfare is going on but don’t be a part of it don’t be a part of throwing fiery darts there’s that that comes from Satan not from God’s people that’s how you know how do we know the that they’re saved you know by love but he said by their fruits ye shall know them I preached on that the other day if you were watching yes but by the fruit love joy be long suffering gentleness kindness right church people you’re sick if you’re participating in this it means that you’re not supposed to ever be critical of like a prophet or an apostle in this movement because they’re anointed by God and um and if you are if you do touch the Lord’s anointing you better be careful because that could bring some kind of judgment upon yourself so doing what the Apostle Paul says to test you know test prophecies and doing what uh the Apostle John said that we should you know we should uh be testing uh everything we hear that’s called being critical right really yeah really it is um and you know they’ll you know when when they’re Challen when they’re when you say this when you when you say this they’ll say oh no no we believe all prophecies should be tested but um but in actuality um you know and we cite multiple examples of sources in our books um what actually is taught is is that when you do test them then you are um often another tactic we use is name call or we talk about his name calling that’s uh if you’re critical of the leaders in this movement they will often call you um kind of bad names like they’ll say you have a Jezebel spirit because Jezebel persecuted the prophets one of the things that when I was studying the spirit of Jezebel years ago one of the things Holy Spirit highlighted to me is one of them the I think the spirit of Jezebel’s main agenda is to come against and hijack the kingly anointing yeah you’re a Pharisee because the Pharisees you know were against Jesus and and you’re you know and so there’s all these uh you’re critical of a Revival there there’s a ton of names these bad labels that are applied to people and so even though you know leaders in this movement will say oh no you should test our prophecies and actuality when you do people are often met with name calling brain Stoppers you know all of these tactics we’re talking about yeah so chapter six in your book is called counterfeit Revival and you hear this talk about Revival all of the time so what um what are some signs that uh that are of a counterfeit Revival right and so you know when a lot of people talk about Revival just um when Christians in general talk about Revival people who are not part of the New Apostolic Reformation they often are talking about things like you know the Billy Graham Crusades or tint Revival meetings or or Evangelistic meetings where people are um um you know trusting Jesus coming to Salvation uh maybe repenting of sin renewing their commitment to Christ this type of thing but in the New Apostolic Reformation they often talk about uh Revival in terms of an in-time well-known end-time Nar prophecy known as the billion Soul Harvest and there are some very influential prophets in the New Apostolic Reformation um including Bob Jones and Paul Kane who talked about this uh great end time Revival that’s supposed to happen where uh a billion people will uh convert to uh belief in Christ then they will do so because they will see all these amazing Miracles that are being done by the apostles and Prophets and so so Revival in the Nar is the um is referring to this billionthal Harvest where allegedly a billion people will come to Believe In Christ under under the leadership of the Apostles and Prophets and and who are performing these great signs and wonders and miracles even greater miracles than Jesus worked so so when you are um you hear about a Revival event today you want to be really careful that that Revival event isn’t actually a Gnar Revival event because churches might inadvertently find themselves partnering with uh Nar Revival not even realize they just heard the word Revival and they think oh this is this is great of course we want to see Revival um not realizing that that maybe Gnar leaders in church churches are behind that Revival event and what they’re partnering with is counterfeit Revival and so signs to watch out for to make sure you’re you’re not partnering with our Revival efforts um are um if if they’re focusing on activating people in miraculous gifts like like uh yeah I describe that in the book that happened when I visited Bethel you know um the idea that anybody can develop a miraculous gift anybody can learn to prophesy or work miracles how many would would be willing to take training that would activate your gifts and anointings man see that’s a lot that’s all the hands uh that’s something that scripture does not support um anybody can learn those things because the holy spirit gives those gifts to people as he alone decides we know from First Corinthians 12. and so that’s something to watch out for and often at Nar Revival events you might see things like fire tunnels that’s a practice uh that’s very popular today you people can go online on Google or I mean on YouTube and look look up fire tunnel and see the fire tunnels that happen at Bethel church and other Nar churches but what that is is people put their like the the leaders uh of a Revival event will kind of form a tunnel with their hands they’ll stand in two lines and form a tunnel and people run through the tunnel and supposedly as they’re running through the tunnel they’re having these deep encounters with the Holy Spirit and maybe being activated in miraculous gifts and these these type of things are occurring thank you um so so that’s something to watch out for a lot of emphasis on new revelation which is often referred to as strategies uh and these are strategies the apostles and Prophets are allegedly given to allow Christians to bring Heaven to Earth or bring God’s kingdom to Earth um and so another thing to watch out for is uh an emphasis on Dominion uh that the church is supposed to take Dominion or social political control of the world and the way to do that is by receiving these new Revelations from these new Apostles and Prophets so you’ll hear a talk of of the seven Mountain mandate at Nara Revival events because that’s a revelation the prophets have received uh allegedly for how the churches to take Dominion by taking control of the seven major societal institutions so like government business education you know and you go on through these seven major societal institutions um another thing to watch out for is um an emphasis on on encouraging people to seek to have encounters with angels so there are classes there are books in this movement that claim to teach people how to uh initiate contact essentially with angels what activates angels to work on our behalf well Psalms 103 verse 20 tells us very clearly that angels hearken to the voice of God’s word when we say What God Says angels get involved in bringing that to pass Angels listen to prayers that we voice that are in line with God’s word they hearken to decrees that we make in line with God’s word or prophetic words or or dreams or visions that are in line with God’s will his plan his words what are some steps that a person coming out of this movement can take in order to begin to heal yeah we talk about this in our book but um it’s really important for people to learn to read the Bible together because um unfortunately um the leaders in this movement have modeled to them bad methods of um reading and interpreting scripture and you know because the leaders of this movement will will often claim that they receive hidden insights into the scripture that no one else has ever seen before then um then people will learn that they you know uh that they have to go to these leaders to actually understand scripture and that they can’t read scripture for themselves and they won’t know how to read scripture for themselves and to read it following the proper rules of interpretation you know so it’s important for people to learn how to read the Bible in context and make sure just aren’t being ripped out of their context without disregard you know with disregard for the context as so hap often happens in the Nar um and so it’s really important that people learn to read the Bible better and we talk about strategies for that in our book it’s also important for people to find a healthy Church to attend and you know understandably people that have been deceived uh in the Nar they’re they’re often reluctant to go find another church because they’re afraid of being duped again and they may not even know what to look for they don’t know what to look for in a healthy church because they’ve been part of an unhealthy church for so long but it’s very important for for people to find a healthy Church where where scripture is being taught soundly you know exegetically and expositionally we talk about how to find a healthy Church in our book it’s also important for people to learn about spiritual abuse um to because in many cases people have experienced spiritual abuse under the leadership of Apostles and Prophets and they may have not even realized it and so learning about spiritual abuse the tactics of spiritual abuse maybe reading books about good books about spiritual abuse will help open people’s eyes and so they can be alert to signs of spiritual abuse and and and make sure that um you know that the new church they find that they’re going to isn’t a spiritually abusive Church um and then also we recommend that people join a support group um you know many people who’ve come out of the Nar have have found it very helpful to join a support group for example like a support group on face on a support group on Facebook um there’s a there’s a group we recommend in our book um but um there are a number of groups out there where where people can come together because often when you go to church you might not meet other people who have come out of the Nar like yourself and are seeking to recover and they might not fully relate to your experiences and what you’re going through because they haven’t experienced that themselves and so it helps you to find other believers who have gone through the same thing and are in recovery and so you can encourage each other um as you come out of this movement Holly that was so good thank you so much for deciding to come on the show today and folks this is the book right here counterfeit Kingdom and uh Holly you and Doug have done such a a great service to the body of Christ with this book um so many people have been talking about this and uh it’s just an it’s an excellent book um so thank you very much for your work and thank you for deciding to uh come on the program today oh thank you so much Daniel it’s been my pleasure all right folks thank you so much for watching and uh don’t forget you can find Holly’s book uh on Amazon and where else can they find it Holly it’s well everywhere books are sold um Amazon uh Barnes Noble LifeWay website you can order it through your local bookstore good good all right thanks Holly for joining me God bless thank you Daniel bye [Music]

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